Teaching with Comics with Jason DeHart

Embark on an enlightening odyssey into the transformative world of graphic novels with our distinguished guest, Jason DeHart. With a PhD in Literacy under his belt, Jason unpacks the potent blend of critical literacy and empathy in his latest book, "Building Critical Literacy and Empathy with Graphic Novels." Our conversation whirls around the magic of storytelling, why your next favorite book might just be a graphic novel, and Jason's personal endeavors as a podcaster blending his love for coffee and literature on "Words, Images, and Worlds."

Feel the tug of nostalgia as we reminisce about the comic book heroes of our childhoods, shedding light on the narrative prowess of graphic novels compared to traditional prose. Jason and I dissect the unique ways in which comics and graphic novels stitch together words and images to create compelling stories that resonate across ages. If you've ever scoffed at the notion of comics being 'real reading,' prepare to have your perspectives challenged and horizons broadened, as we delve into their role as powerful cogs in the literacy machine.

As we wrap up, we tackle the less spoken-about aspects of the creative journey, like the menacing specter of imposter syndrome and the ecstasies of the writing process. Jason candidly shares his strategies for channeling self-doubt into passion-fueled writing and offers nuggets of wisdom for aspiring authors. Whether you're a teacher, a parent, or simply a lover of a good story, this episode promises to enrich your understanding of storytelling's place in education, culture, and beyond.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome back everyone to the Writers Parachute. We're guiding author and writer dreams to a perfect landing. Today we have with us a very special guest. It's Jason DeHart, and he is an author, writer, podcaster and teacher with a PhD in Literacy, and we're going to be talking to him about his book. It's a new book. It's not even out yet. It'll be out in April. It's up on pre-order now. It's building critical literacy and empathy with graphic novels. We'll talk to him in just a moment, but of course, we want you to go ahead and smash that like button. Go ahead and hit the bell and the subscribe button so that you can enjoy every episode here on the Writers Parachute. If you'd like to follow us, we are on Facebook, instagram, twitter, x and now on threads and TikTok at Writers Parachute. That's Writers Parachute without an S. Also, if you would like to get a weekly reminder in your email inbox about new episodes, you can go sign up for newsletter at sendfoxcom. Slash the Writers Parachute and get that to you every week. Then, of course, every week we start off with a topic of the week.

Speaker 1: 1:18

This week we're going to talk about storytelling. This is leading into our season three, where we're going to really dive deep into the aspects of story. Let's talk about storytelling. What is storytelling? Storytelling is primarily started off as part of communication. It was how we travel news from one person to another. It was how we communicated with each other, to drawings on the cable walls, to grunts and points, and whatever it is. It's all storytelling. We're repeating information in some way or form, in a manner to get people to pay attention. It is about communication. It's also about engagement. It's about making that connection with someone else, whether it is direct, as in the old days where you're having conversation with somebody. It's also about books, when you're reading a book, and making that connection with a reader about an idea or a thought. It's also about exploring ideas. It's about bringing new ideas in front of an audience that may not see it before. It's about giving them information and presenting it in a way that makes them curious, makes them ask questions and sparks discussion. The next time you're thinking about a story, whether you're writing one or reading one or just talking about it think about what makes a story great and how great we all are at storytelling. That's it for this week. Of course, there's always so much more we could talk about, about storytelling and our topics of the week. If you would like more information, you can always reach out to us at info at thewritersparachutecom, and we'd be happy to get back to you. Of course, we want to get to our guests and get on with our show.

Speaker 1: 3:09

This week, we have with us the amazing Jason DeHart. I read his book. I read some of all of his books, which are very in-depth. It was like a rabbit hole of learning for me to go down. He is a writer, podcaster, teacher with a PhD in literacy. We're going to talk about his new book Building Critical Literacy and Empathy with Graphic Novels Such an interesting idea. It is available for pre-order right now on Amazon. It will be available and released on April 2nd of 2024. Jason is a podcaster who shares literacy on his podcast Words, images and Worlds. He's also an English teacher, a former literacy professor, and has edited several and co-edited books released that focus on comics, media and literacy, and has published a book that stems from his dissertation, plus an upcoming book about teaching with comics from his own university, ncte. I'll let you go ahead and tell us what those initials stand for, because I would mess it up. How are you today, jason?

Speaker 2: 4:19

I'm good. I'm good. Thanks for having me. It's really nice to be on this side of the podcasting desk.

Speaker 1: 4:25

It's always different, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 4:27

It is.

Speaker 1: 4:28

It is. Sometimes it's like I think, okay, I've done this so many times, it's so easy. But then when I'm interviewed, I'm like I want to ask a question.

Speaker 2: 4:37

I want to answer questions.

Speaker 1: 4:39

I want to ask the questions. It's a little different, but that's okay, we get through it. I'm so excited to have you on here. Don't get a whole lot of other podcasters on here or ones that are so closely related to what I do in a very different and unique way, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 4:59

Yes, yes, absolutely the Literacy Family of Podcasters. I love it.

Speaker 1: 5:04

That's it. There's not a lot of us that actually talk about books or talk about authors or talk about the process or the impact they have. We have a lot of them that are like oh here, let me read this book, or oh, here's a whole bunch of authors you should go read sort of thing, or maybe in depth on a specific book, but not one that just kind of covers the spectrum, which is why I find it so fascinating. It's like I could read books and drink coffee and talk about writing forever.

Speaker 2: 5:38

I brought some coffee as well. Absolutely, it's decaf. It's in this nice invisible cup, so absolutely.

Speaker 1: 5:48

Well, it is one of my joys to drink coffee, to read books and talk about books and writing, so what more can you do than put it all together at a podcast and enjoy it? So I get to talk to amazing authors and writers and talk to them about all their ideas that they have and why they write their books, which I find almost as fascinating as the books themselves.

Speaker 1: 6:11

So, we're going to talk a little bit about your new book, which is Building Critical Legacy and Empathy with Graphic Novels, which I am just blown away that you put all of that together in one book. It is available, as I said, for pre-order and is set to release on April 2nd. So can you kind of give us an idea of how this particular project came together with all these kind of seemingly separate ideas, and what was the inspiration behind the inception of the book?

Speaker 2: 6:43

Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned NCTE and that's the National Council of Teachers of English, and so the backstory of the book is that during the pandemic, I was a literacy professor doing online classes sort of doing what people do to keep afloat and engaged in that time and I had put in a proposal for a poster presentation at the NCTE conference about comics and literacy. And so I got this email from an editor and they said would you like to write a book about this? We would be really interested in featuring something about comics. And so of course, I said yes, and I never thought that I would have an editor approach me. This was a very different sort of process and, long story short in between, that editor actually left NCTE and so I reached back out and kind of followed up and said I received this email I'm still very interested in this and wound up connecting with another editor, which is Kurt Austin, and Kurt worked with me in the development of the book and the development of working through the stages of getting it all to be where it is now.

Speaker 2: 7:57

And as far as the topic itself critical literacy and empathy those are some really major threads of some of the work that I've done and been engaged in in the past four or five years or so, and really probably even reaching back before that. And so thinking about a topic, a series of topics that a book about graphic novels and comics could touch on, was kind of an interesting challenge, because there have been a lot and I've written other articles and posts about ways you can use graphic novels and comics but to think about critical literacy, some of those deeper questions that I like to ask and explore with my students, as well as empathy, which I just feel is an important cornerstone of what it means to be a human being, of what it means to be a decent human being, those are some of the connection points that came through there, and comics are an ideal way to think about seeing our experiences and seeing experiences of people that maybe are not like us or that have a different set of experiences.

Speaker 1: 9:05

Right, and I just you know, as I said, it was like there was so much information in this book. It was like I was sitting here for like a couple of days trying to figure out what do I touch on.

Speaker 1: 9:18

What I do, because it was like each thing was kind of like going down a different avenue and learning so much more about it, and I just love this and so I want to know what you think is the first step to kind of understanding the value of graphic novels and comics and literacy, because you take a different view of that compared to what we would say typical children's books or young adult books and that kind of ilk in teaching children and getting them to come to literacy and kind of stay with reading for the most part.

Speaker 2: 9:57

I think part of that is taking the time to go through a book, taking the time to kind of explore what's out there, because it's just amazing to me I've been reading comics since I was about seven years old and really thought of them. As you know superhero books, you know Batman was a big character in my life growing up and to see the range of things that are being published right now, many of which I try to mention in the book and many of which I also try to feature on the podcast. There's a wide range of materials that are out there, and so I think kind of the first step would be taking inventory of what exactly is out there and maybe, if a listener has an idea of what a comic is, there's probably a book out there that's going to change that challenge, that extend that. And then I love the conversation that can happen around books.

Speaker 2: 10:52

It's Frank Seraphini that says when you read a good book, you don't want to make sort of like a model out of it. You don't want to make a mobile. As English teachers, very often I've been guilty of doing things like that and having students do things like that. But the first thing that I want to do is I want to tell somebody about it and so taking the time to notice what's on the page and those marks that the artists made that go along with the story. The comics have a lot to offer in that regard.

Speaker 1: 11:19

Right, and you know it takes you back to, you know, the bottom line. All it takes to write a good book whether it be fiction, nonfiction, comic, graphic novel, manja, anime, whatever it is is tell a good story. That's what we're looking for. So just from my audience's sake. So what is the difference? Because you would be the person I would ask this what is the difference between a graphic novel, a comic book, manja or anime versus regular, what we think of as children's books and or young adult books?

Speaker 2: 12:00

Yeah, that's a great question. So a young adult book usually looks a lot like a prose heavy type of approach. I happen to have one of the first young adult books ever right here, the Catcher and the Rye, and it is very much a prose oriented sort of a thing. Didn't even think about that, but there it is, versus a picture book which is kind of like very spare prose. The picture book authors that I talk with and you probably know this from your own experience in authoring, it's poetic.

Speaker 2: 12:32

It's choosing those words and then pairing them up with images, and usually they're kind of separated. You have like words here, images over here or up here, above or next to the words somewhere else in location. And then you have comics which are this sort of like word and picture salad where you've thrown the words together, you've thrown the images together, and usually they're in little narrative boxes. Sometimes they're not. They have their own sort of grammar and Will Eisner, who is a notable comics creator from decades ago, coined the term graphic novel as kind of a marketing idea of saying this is not just a comic, whatever, just a comic means, but it's this longer form.

Speaker 2: 13:21

Hey, it's a novel, it just happens to be graphic, it happens to be visual, and so usually when people say graphic novel they just mean a longer form comic, either a standalone story or a collected edition. A lot of modern comics that release in like 22 page to 48 page issues each month are eventually collected by publishers into a trade paperback, which you could then technically call a graphic novel, even though it's the assembly of those stories and then manga and anime or their own worlds, really a different set of design features that come in a different sort of orientation and reading from end to beginning, and of course they're popularized around the world and so manga being the printed form, and I believe anime is sort of the filmic version that's often created and they definitely have students that are very much into manga. And it's really interesting to see too how comics that are more mainstream in the United States, manga being more mainstream in a lot of other places, are really influenced by manga at the same time.

Speaker 1: 14:39

Right, which is why I wanted to ask you this question, because a lot of people use these terms interchangeably and they sort of are of all of the same salad, as you said, but they're also very uniquely different and I love your explanation. So what is the difference in bringing that information across to the reader in, let's say, this graphic novel, comic section of the literary world, versus the prose heavy, the word, heavy, the illustration, heavy books that we normally associate with reading to kids?

Speaker 2: 15:24

Yeah, so if something is being read aloud, if something is more prose oriented or prose heavy, the words are doing the work in a lot of ways there and carrying the story and in many ways, the visual it's an invisible process. It's almost, I think of it as like telegraphing from one mind to another. So I, as the author, I'll explain something and I'll draw it out in words in an effort to get the reader to sort of sort of follow what I'm saying and create their own image. And that's one of the interesting things about reading too is that when we're reading we sort of if we're reading well and we're reading accurately, we're probably creating an image in our mind. So it's really good practice just to think like what am I seeing right now as I'm reading this? And so it's that invisible conversation of author to audience and it's a mixture. Louise Rosenblatt is this reading theorist who said that it's a transaction.

Speaker 2: 16:28

So the interaction that an author has with me will be a little bit different from the interaction that an author has with you. You have your experiences, you have your perceptions that you bring to it.

Speaker 2: 16:40

Maybe you cast a slightly different visual, based on things that you've seen and experienced, than what I might cast from a prose heavy page versus a graphic novel, which is the image also being created by an author or an artist or a person that's doing both roles. And so they've written it, they've imagined it, but then they offer it to the reader, and the reader has the opportunity to sort of see things that someone else has seen in the way that they chose to render it. And then they have the words to unpack and explore critically, as well as the pictures. And it's been interesting to talk to authors that don't illustrate their own work, because very often they'll say well, I write something and then I send it out and I get it back and I open it and I'm just amazed because someone has seen what was inside of my mind and they drew it onto the page or they saw something completely different, but it changed it and it made it even better.

Speaker 1: 17:43

Right, which is amazing. So I'm going to split your answer in half and have a response here. So I think first I'm going to talk about with graphic novels and comics.

Speaker 1: 17:55

I think it's as much about what is not being said what is in the background, or the little hidden elements and Easter eggs, so to speak, that tell as much of the story. As that we don't get in traditional books because you aren't seeing things in the illustrations that don't go with the story. But you do get that a lot with graphic novels and comic books and it's like it kind of adds an almost like mystery element or thriller element to the reading of the story, because you have to work a little bit harder to kind of really get what's going on. So it's like and some of it's like red herring. So again, you know there's reasoning and you do talk about that in your book, which I just found just completely fascinating.

Speaker 1: 18:49

And then the second thing I wanted to say is you know, when I read a book, it's like I tell people this all the time after about the first paragraph or so, I don't see the words anymore. I am literally seeing a movie going through my head. I just don't see the words and it's like and I'm always surprised when somebody interrupts me and I'm like, oh, I really did. You know, I read a bunch of pages but it doesn't. All I'm seeing is whatever is going on in my head. So you know, and I do love that. That's why I love reading so much, because I'm so easily entertained by my own imagination, my own mind. It's a gift.

Speaker 2: 19:26

That's a gift.

Speaker 1: 19:27

Well, I've been reading for a very long time and I read a lot, a lot of books. I probably read about 60 or 70 books a month.

Speaker 2: 19:34

Oh nice, so you know.

Speaker 1: 19:36

but you know that's one of my joys in life. So why? Why? You know why short myself? It's not, it's not fattening and it's not illegal. So, you get to enjoy it All right. So in your book you discover graphic novels and comics as ladders to literacy, which I love that phrase For our audience. Can you explain what you mean by that? And I also want to know how we can use the ladders to literacy to encourage readers and people to continue reading.

Speaker 2: 20:13

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I would first say that ladders to literacy wasn't something that I came up with. It was in a book called From Striving to Thriving. But I take that concept and think about it through the lens of the types of books that I might use with students, or even reflecting on my own reader history, which I do quite a lot, just in thinking about what works in teaching and what's worked for me, having something that really connects you as a reader and connecting with a story, a character, some aspect of the work that speaks to you, but then not stopping there and not saying, well, that was a great book, okay, let's, let's move on and do other things and engage in other things. But what's the next book and what's the next book after that? And as somebody that used to teach and still occasionally teaches college classes for students that want to be teachers, sometimes I'll get the question of like, well, what if I have a student and they only want to read comics? Is that okay? And I'm going like, yeah, that's, that's reading.

Speaker 2: 21:21

It's reading and if you really want to sort of expand and, you know, move to something else, then maybe the next more complex comic is the way to think about that. Or for me again, it was popular characters. So I connected with comics, which then connected me with films about the characters, which connected me to novelizations of the films, comics, adaptations of the films, books about the characters. I mean, I remember reading really pretty historically exploratory Indiana Jones novels as a younger person because I love the character and I might not have understood everything that was happening but I was willing to go with it because I love that character and it was easy to cast that in my head, to create the mental picture, because I had Harrison Ford right there and it worked.

Speaker 2: 22:16

So that's. That's sort of the idea of what I mean when I talk about letters to literacy. Now you've read this, what's next? What's next after that? And it just makes me think of all of the students that I try to connect with books that say Well, the last book I read was sixth grade.

Speaker 2: 22:32

And this is someone who's almost about to graduate high school or the or offering choice readings to students and some of my literacy courses at the college level. Well, this is the first book I've read for fun since junior high or sometime in high school, so that continuing practice it means a lot and I think that that's part of building empathy to exploring stories from people around us and people that can sort of challenge our notions and assumptions.

Speaker 1: 23:06

Right, which I absolutely love that and I just want to, I just want to understand from your book you were talking about particularly the letters and about it and encouraging readers and reading, and you know I get that you're making connection and I find it fascinating that only kind of this graphic novels and comics and romance books are the only ones that are able to kind of like create this whole world around their books. I mean, you know you have Comic Con, you know you have people dressing up in the costumes, you have people doing the trading cards and trading the comic books and you know particular stores that just you know focus on comics and stuff like that. You sort of have that a bit in the romance realm. You know where people are very much into those. You know get together for romance authors and all their trading cards and you know that sort of thing. But it's fascinating and I think this is what draws in readers and especially young readers, because it also builds like a community for them.

Speaker 1: 24:23

What are your thoughts on that? Do you agree or is this something? Am I just going off on crazy rabbit trails?

Speaker 2: 24:30

No, no, that's very, very accurate. And you know, fandom is a very interesting thing, and especially with online connections that people can make. Now there are fandom communities where you can try out your own stories with the characters that you love. And then there's this interesting phenomenon of cosplay, which I've seen people do with things like Harry Potter. I've seen it as more of like a small corner of the literary universe, but there does seem to be something about comics that invites people to embody those characters and explore them, collect the t shirts, collect the action figures, all the things, so there's kind of an immersion in it. Romance novels is funny that you mentioned that, because people do check out stacks of them from libraries and immerse themselves in it. I don't know that people cosplay as romance characters, but that might be a.

Speaker 1: 25:30

Not as much, I mean you have a few of them, but not quite as in depth.

Speaker 2: 25:36

I've not done that. But now I'm thinking about the student in my class this semester that was reading a romance novel and it was the funniest thing, because she said this is not really my thing, but I started it and so I'm kind of finishing it just, and it was more of like on a dare. But yeah, there's this definite culture around comics and visual stories that way that works in a really interesting, unique way, and then there's a collection side to it too. That's, that's part of fandom.

Speaker 1: 26:06

Right. Well, and I honestly think that you know it's like with anything in life. It's like, you know, you dip your toe into the pool and it's like, can you find the water's warm? And then there's people in there splashing and having fun and you want to join them and then they all come back on a certain day. So you want to come back on that certain today and I feel like that's sort of the way that graphic novels and comic come across, especially in young readers, is it's very inviting to you know, to be part of that community. You don't feel like you're kind of on the outside, looking like you're just the kid reading, reading this unusual book.

Speaker 2: 26:47

So and I'm going to. I'll tap back to your opening comments about storytelling, because storytelling is all about connection, connecting with the past or connecting with experiences in some way. So, absolutely, if I can have affiliation and belong to this group, if I already love this character and other people love it too, then that absolutely creates a sense of belonging. And have you ever had that thing happen where you're talking about books and no one knows what you're talking about, but that one person at the table Because that's one of the ways that I, that my wife and I connected I would make references to novels and she was sort of like explain what I was talking about and it was, you know, sort of the eyes meeting across the table like, aha, you've read Jane Austen? Okay, I have to. So there's definitely that, that connection through literature.

Speaker 1: 27:42

Yes, yes, yes. I have that often where I'm like, yeah, I read this book the other day and people just eyes glaze yeah, yeah. So I want to know what you think are the biggest misconceptions about graphic novels and comics and what is the biggest obstacles in using them to advance literacy, especially in the formal teaching arena.

Speaker 2: 28:11

Yeah. So I think one of the assumptions is if you've seen one, you've seen them all, which is sort of the assumption that's made about a lot of literature. If I've seen Garfield, I've seen comics. Or if I've seen Batman, I've seen comics. And, as I mentioned earlier, there are so many to explore their lists. Online book riot has lists of wonderful graphic novels to explore. So that's one of the misconceptions. I would say that another misconception is that they're really easy and they can be supportive reading experiences if you're a reader that really taps into that visual. But they can also be really challenging If you're a reader who sort of travels through and goes by the words only and then reaches the end and says what was that about?

Speaker 2: 29:00

because there were images there to that had to be taken in, or you or you mentioned sort of the noticing the smaller parts of images, so kind of checking out what's happening between the panels because their static images and pulling into that a little bit.

Speaker 2: 29:18

Those are a couple of the misconceptions. And then as far as obstacles to overcome, I think that there's almost a fear that circulates of certain books of like oh oh, if I have a character who challenges my thinking in some way, then I can't read that book, or nobody else should read that book, and that's. That's just good critical thinking, to be able to believe what you believe, you think about the world and then sometimes make adjustments as you need to, based on new information. I mean, that's how empathy and critical literacy are built. So I had a professor who's actually a college president and a person of faith one time that said you know, there's no idea in the world that's going to steal your faith. There's no idea that's going to to wrap that wrap. You have that. So I think giving folks the space to tell stories and to tell their own stories in their own way is one of those things that needs to happen in a free democracy.

Speaker 1: 30:31

Well, and I think particularly in schools. You know, I used to be a reading specialist and what I found was this idea of they're not really books. You know, it's like oh yeah, now my kid wants to read those, but there's a not really books. You need to get him to read a book and I'm like what do you mean? Those are not really books. I mean they're between pages, they have words in them.

Speaker 2: 30:58

Yeah, and I still fight those assumptions. Sometimes in that language it creeps through and that's one of the things that I try to mention in the book as well is that it's really about breaking down those assumptions and hierarchies. And it's because you've read Ulysses by James Joyce and I have doesn't mean that you got necessarily any more or less out of it than you might have from a comic. In fact, that probably read comics with more insight than James Joyce Ulysses, just to be honest.

Speaker 1: 31:32

So there was just yeah, it was kind of like. It was like okay, so let me get the dictionary at the Tsarist and encyclopedia and some language books while I'm reading.

Speaker 2: 31:45

And then we learn he's lonely and okay.

Speaker 1: 31:49

I know, and it's like wow, this is a really long way to say that he was just bored, okay, so I want to know what you think are the critical steps to help us expand options and build excitement for reading with readers.

Speaker 2: 32:06

Yeah, read widely, read widely, my goodness, and you mentioned some of the challenges on the teaching side as well. So, assuming that you can just sort of hand something over and go here you go. There's always. Readers need readers. Young readers need readers to guide them through. I had a friend, katie Rowe, who recently posted that even older readers need read alouds, and that's absolutely true.

Speaker 2: 32:37

So a critical step, I think, is just building awareness of what's being published and then modeling that appreciation and also being okay if someone doesn't like the thing that you like, because that's part of the journey of finding what does connect. That's part of the artistry of teaching and the artistry of sharing books. Not every student that I encounter, not every friend that I have, really likes comics, and that's okay. I personally am not very tapped into the romance novel market. It's not my thing, it's just not me. I've read a few. I read some Nicholas Sparks I live in North Carolina, absolutely read Knights in Rodanthe, but I was good after that. I'll respect to the tragedies that happen in small places in North Carolina, but yeah, it's about finding what connects with you and the stories that resonate with you most, right.

Speaker 1: 33:36

Well, you know, and it's like I have my favorites. It's like I don't read horror, mostly because we talked about my imagination. It's like I read those books and then that monster lives in my closet forever.

Speaker 1: 33:55

There's a reason for that you know I read fantasy and sci-fi. It's probably not my first pick, but you know it is there and I enjoy it from time to time. But you're right. But you know I experienced that when I was working on my first book for my middle grade series, as I went and talked to, you know, a lot of parents, teachers, educators and you know, and got one side of what they thought you know how this should be presented. And then I sat down with a bunch of kids and boy did that open my eyes?

Speaker 1: 34:30

You know, I found that a lot of them don't like reading the longer stories in elementary school because there's no pictures, they don't have anything to kind of help them make sure they're understanding the story. It's like, you know, we get picture books up to like age seven and then we just kind of like, oh, here's a bunch of words, now it's like train them to have pictures and words, and all of a sudden we take the pictures away and they get confused and it also causes reading level issues because they're like, oh, don't read that, you know. And so they kind of stumble and start with that. So you know, I'm like, well, that's simple enough, add some illustrations in there. It's like that's not hard. It's like why is? Why? Are we not doing this more? Like let's help these readers out, let's get them reading more.

Speaker 1: 35:21

Also, to the pacing is like. One of the things they said is like they'll read like halfway through a book and then they get bored. So it's like pick up the pace, get you know. You know. It's like they'll figure it out. They'll either go with you or they won't, but pick up the pace and get through the story. Have some exciting stuff going on. Also, they're like oh, you know I, you know, I read by chapters. I don't read by words, I read by chapters. So it's like I put a bunch of chapters in there, made them super short, so they feel like they're advancing through the book really fast and always left it with a cliffhanger. So they absolutely wanted to turn that page. I had one teacher tell me she's like, she's like you wrote this book in a very wicked way.

Speaker 2: 36:02

And she goes.

Speaker 1: 36:03

I started reading it to my class and they kept going one more chapter, one more, because we spent the entire day and read the entire book.

Speaker 2: 36:11

Nice Kudos to you. That is a powerful author. Moves the cliffhanger connecting to the next chapter. I love it.

Speaker 1: 36:18

Well, that's it. You know it's like you know these are all ticks, trips, tick. I'll get it out in a minute Tricks, tips and tools for for writers, especially when you're dealing with young readers, because they're you know, everybody's attention span is really short, but theirs is like a nanosecond, so if you drop the ball for that nanosecond, they're gone.

Speaker 2: 36:41

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:43

You know they've got screens and videos and stuff that's flashing lights. It's like if you're going to give them a static thing, you better make it exciting and it better be moving fast.

Speaker 2: 36:52

Absolutely, and you were talking about pictures and how there's that certain age where you don't get the pictures anymore. I'm a person who appreciates the art of words, how words can be arranged to create an image, but then I also appreciate the image and the style that comes through and somebody's line work or composition on a page. So there's, there's just a lot there to appreciate and unpack.

Speaker 1: 37:18

Well, and sometimes it's easier to bring across the image. I mean, you know, there's a reason they say pictures worth a thousand words, because you can say so much more with an image that would take you page and pages and pages to say in words. And I think they kind of end up reinforcing each other, as you know, as the readers mature, and it kind of helps them, you, because, like I said, I don't put one on every single page like they do in picture books, I just put one for each chapter, but it kind of helps them reinforce what they read and they're like, oh, okay, I didn't get that, but I see the picture now I get it, yep, kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 38:03

So I just find that that that fascinating. And that's kind of what they're doing with comics and graphic novels is they're giving them those images with the story, and I think that's why they're very popular as well. All right, so we're going to shift gears a little bit and we're going to talk about your writing. So I want to know what obstacles or challenges that you had to deal with or experience while you were creating this book for publication.

Speaker 2: 38:33

Oh, I think in imposter syndrome is always a thing when you're writing and creating that moment where you kind of feel like, is this getting across? And then there's just the mechanics of writing a book, of putting everything in place, getting it in the right place, and then looking through the process, organizing the ideas. I mean, the reading part was really a joy to dig into the graphic novels that are part of the book and to get to highlight those. But then figuring out where things fit and how things flow together. And then, look, there's that question of have I said this already what is the right place? And also write academically. And so there's that sort of middle ground of writing in a way that is accessible and is useful, versus sometimes when I write for academic settings and academic situations where I'm like, okay, bring all your terms and make sure you define them with more complex terms, so. So there's sort of that negotiation process to, but definitely the the imposter syndrome kicks in at a certain point. And were it not for the joy, of writing, were it not?

Speaker 1: 39:50

Well, yeah, we talk about imposter syndrome a lot here. It's like people laugh at me. I've actually named my internal critic, george. He gets sent to the closet a lot because he annoys me and I find that that works. For me is like when I'm feeling that internal critic or that imposter syndrome is like alright, george, you gotta go.

Speaker 2: 40:11

Yeah, I think this is. Is this the part where I was mentioning throwing drafts away and things like that, or does that come later?

Speaker 1: 40:18

I'll talk about that a little bit, but I mean you can do that now to. It's a four shadow week at the end of the show.

Speaker 2: 40:26

That's right. It's a four shadowing, so that is something that I've struggled with and and I do have tips on that Okay.

Speaker 1: 40:34

All right, awesome. Well, that's always exciting, so cliffhanger.

Speaker 2: 40:39

see, there you go, I'm borrowing your method.

Speaker 1: 40:43

There you go, so you've also written a bunch of other books. We have a teaching, challenged and challenging topics in diverse and inclusive literature as one, the reading teacher as another, the Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy as another, and English Journal, and then many, many more. There was a list of a bunch of bunch of most of them are focusing on education. They are academically written but they're great reads nonetheless. So I would encourage anybody that's curious about how to get your child to read, why they read or why they're. You know they will go towards certain books or titles or books, or why they may be struggling with reading. I would take a pick up a couple of these books by Jason and check it out. So I want to know what you think parents and other informal educators can gain from your books, and what I think. But what do you think?

Speaker 2: 41:47

Yeah, well, I hope I can. In the midst of sharing theories, I hope I also share practical ideas. I'm a big proponent of sharing the practical, and if you can't use it practically, then let's retest that theory. So I hope that's something that people get. I hope that people think about the reading that they're doing, that young people in their lives are doing either students or children that they have or whoever happens to be in their life and I hope that they see some of the strengths that kids offer and that kids bring some of the interest that they have, because my thinking is that kids do a lot of reading all the time in different ways, and there's a lot there to build on. There's a lot of work to do in reading, certainly, and then reading instruction, but there's also a lot to build on and so many tools that we now have to support that as well. So I hope I point to some of those things and I share bits and pieces of my story as well and a lot of my work, so I hope that some of that comes through.

Speaker 2: 42:57

First generation college student. First generation PhD. Wanted to be a writer. Grew up in a small town in West Virginia, never really expected that to be possible. I dreamed, but you never know where things are headed in your story and in your journey, and so I would say don't limit yourself, don't let other people limit you, and if there is somebody who's limiting you, find a supportive voice that can guide you in the right direction. Certainly, we always want to be open to support and constructive criticism, but the key to constructive criticism is we have to be able to construct something out of it that's positive. Those are a few things that I would say that I hope people get from the work.

Speaker 1: 43:48

Well, I think they'll more than get those things but I also think you know it's important if you take nothing else away from this conversation, but just stopping and thinking why you gravitate towards certain styles of writing, you know, why you enjoy those and how that speaks as much about us as it does about the writers themselves or the particular genre, and maybe step back and think about why is that and what is the connective tissue to possibly other genres or other styles of writing? Because, as you said, you know, even you know if you have a child that's in, you know, elementary school, that's looking at graphic novels or comic books and they're not getting it from the regular picture books, then go ahead and let them read that. Or if you have a struggling reader that's trying to write the comic books and it's not getting advice first. So I think you know picture books could help.

Speaker 1: 44:54

Some of the longer stories I mean you know very famously. You know the Harry Potter series, you know, is middle grade, although I think it's mislabeled. I think it needs to go at much higher reading levels. Some of them, you know are a little bit challenging.

Speaker 1: 45:13

I would say it's an excelled middle grade reading. But you know, there's a bit of fantasy, there's a bit of mystery and stuff and elements at all. Then, and I think it goes across all genres I mean even nonfiction books such as yours have an element of story, they have an element of mystery, they have an element of character in them. That's just the way we tell stories and I think maybe if we step back for a moment and look at why we read certain books over and over again or certain style of books over and over again, we might see where we can expand that and look at maybe some other genres, other other style of books. Me, I try not to discriminate Nothing against horror novels. I just have a closet full of monsters. I don't need any more.

Speaker 2: 46:09

I understand that, stephen King. I tried to read have you ever seen his book later, or no, it's Joyland is the one.

Speaker 2: 46:19

I started reading Joyland one night right before bed, because that is a ritual for me I read before bed most nights, pretty much every night and I thought, oh, it's more on the mystery side, it's more of a crime novel. He still scared me. I woke up in the middle of the night thinking about this story. So yeah, I respect that. I respect the possible books to stay away from or read at different times of day. I definitely respect that.

Speaker 1: 46:50

I think what Stephen King is so good at is he makes the average person scary, the average situation scary. It's not something out of the ordinary.

Speaker 2: 47:05

That's the part that you're just like, like he does this thing where he uses song lyrics a lot. If you'll see, like if there's a character driving or something like that, the song lyrics will be there. So it's like you connect with it and go oh, I've heard that song before and he's got you in the senses right there because, you're hearing the song You're in the moment. It's a very clever thing that he does.

Speaker 1: 47:33

Yes, yes, yes, he's very clever, all right. Well, we got to keep moving along here, so I know you've got a lot to talk about in this next question. What is next for you?

Speaker 2: 47:44

Oh goodness, more podcasting. I've really enjoyed doing the podcast project, the Words, images and Worlds project, as you mentioned. It's just great to talk to authors and creators, have the occasional scholar professor that comes on and talks with me, and so I'm excited to keep doing those and share about authors that are willing to talk to me. It's always a very nice thing.

Speaker 2: 48:09

I am currently working on an auto ethnography research piece that looks at poetry and comics, but also the experience of being first gen college student and professor. I am also working on an edited collection that looks at stories across media. Both of those things are in development, and then I have a few other writing pitches and writing proposals out edited book collection wise and perhaps a volume focused on comics that I would love to work on. So I've been working on those. I have a couple of book chapters that are in development. Some of those are collaborations, so I'm excited to see that one about depictions of mental health in children's literature. That I'm really excited about that. I'm collaborating with a scholar in the United United Kingdom on and more reading, absolutely more reading all the time, always reading, and more teaching.

Speaker 2: 49:13

I have a fresh group of students that are on the way next week, and then I get to find out what connects with them. So very excited about that as well.

Speaker 1: 49:22

Well, that's always so exciting, Always look forward to the first day of school and need new teachers. You know new students because it's it's you get to start over again brand new with them, and it's like it's always a different story, it's always a different approach and I just love that. I do kind of miss that. So here on the writer's parachute, and mostly for season two, we've been focusing on reviews. Reviews are absolutely king when it comes to books and writers and authors of all walks of life. Reviews are not complicated, they're mostly simple. They're an opinion from you as the reader as to what you think of the book, what you like, what you didn't like, who you recommended to you. What you think is an opinion. We always have one. It could be as simple as I liked it, or it could be more complicated and in depth. So we're going to ask Jason to write a review for his book building critical literacy and empathy with graphic novels.

Speaker 2: 50:24

All right, shall I write it in the chat or shall I just?

Speaker 1: 50:27

how about you just tell us.

Speaker 2: 50:32

I really appreciated the way that going through this book helped me think about different kinds of stories. So many titles to explore and there are so many more. By the time I finished reading it I know that there are more that are published. I'm really excited to try out the ideas, or keep trying out the ideas. I was so pleased to see words from authors and creators in the chapters talking about their stories and their books that they've created, and I also really appreciated the time that it took to make sure that each chapter connected to an idea and that there was a teaching tolerance or learning for justice standard attached to help me understand what was going to be in that chapter Awesome.

Speaker 1: 51:27

Awesome Five stars. We're going to give you a good review on that, and the reason that we're doing that is we're putting our guests on the spot to write a review about their own book, which is really difficult because it's something they've spent so much time and energy. It's like you know. It's like you know how do you tell the world that your child is beautiful. They just are Right, right so. But the reason we do that is to illustrate to you how easy it is to write a review. It's just an opinion, it's what you think about the book.

Speaker 1: 51:57

So the next time you read a good book, make sure you go and leave a review. If you recall where you purchased the book from, where you borrowed it from, you can generally go back there and leave a review. Amazon takes reviews. They love reviews. If you purchase the book there, they will make sure that you are a verified reviewer and your review will go up at a higher ranking.

Speaker 1: 52:20

If you cannot remember where you purchased the book from, you can always go to Goodreadscom and find the book or the author and leave a review there. Even if the book is not on Goodreads, you can go ahead and leave a review and it'll be added to Goodreads. There are many other places out there that will accept reviews, but that's generally the one that most people look at, so next time you read a book, make sure you leave a review, and don't forget to reach out to the author. This is one of the few ways that we get feedback from our readers, and so they would be more than happy to hear from you, no matter whether it's good, bad or otherwise, so make sure you do that. So I know.

Speaker 2: 53:03

Have you read a NetGalley? Do you know NetGalley?

Speaker 1: 53:06

NetGalley, yes, netgalley is generally to get books to read before they're published, but they do offer those, but that's a little bit different. Anyone can go to Goodreads, but NetGalley is more to get books that you're going to read and review. Yes, all right, so we talked about your books, and so where can listeners find your books? I know most of them are up on Amazon or on any other platform at this point.

Speaker 2: 53:38

And this is sort of the main page, unless you go to NCT's website for the graphic novels book Rutledge IGI. Those are websites where you can go and check out books directly from the publisher, whatever is most convenient for folks. And then I do share about podcast episodes and things like that in a Facebook group as well as on Instagram Threads Blue Sky. So there are those spaces as well where people can connect, and I'm a little awkward about sharing about my own books, but I do that from time to time as well.

Speaker 1: 54:16

Right, well, yeah, so many other books to talk about. I don't talk about mine all that much, but we are glad that you're available and, of course, don't run out and grab a pen and paper. We will go ahead and put links to all of that in the show notes for you. You also have a podcast, as you mentioned Words, images and Worlds where you talk to educators, authors and creators. So where can they find the podcast? And if they would like to be a guest, if they're an author or a creator out there, where would they reach out to you?

Speaker 2: 54:49

Yeah, absolutely, and I would love to have guests on always featuring people. There's a Facebook group, as I mentioned Words, Images and Worlds. You can find it there on Facebook, and then I also have a more of a private Facebook page so you could link out there. And then Spotify is where the major page is for the audio version of the podcast. It is also on Apple, it is also on Amazon, so you can check it out there. And then, when guests want me to, I share videos as well. I always make that available for guests if they're in a space where they sort of calm their hair or they're comfortable with it. And so there is a YouTube space as well for the episodes where I don't care that much about what I look like most of the time, but we try not to worry about that too much.

Speaker 1: 55:45

Yeah, they're here to talk about books and Worlds and images anyway, so I appreciate that and we will have links to that for you in the show notes. And don't forget a lot of times people will forget we're over on Amazon and Amazon does carry a lot of the podcast through their audiobook platform, so we will have that for you. And where would they reach out to you if they want to be a guest?

Speaker 2: 56:15

Yes, thank you so much. You can just send me a message on Facebook or Instagram. That's probably the best way to do it. It'll pretty well be something that I see immediately and then I will probably respond to you, if I'm not teaching pretty quickly to set up the time and figure out days and things like that. So more than happy to include folks and talk about books and explore ideas that way.

Speaker 1: 56:42

All right, awesome. We'll go ahead and put that information in the show notes for everybody. We did talk about your social media accounts, so do you have any upcoming events that you'd like to share with the audience or listeners?

Speaker 2: 56:54

Sure, I am doing a talk for UGA. I believe Dr David Lowe from Fresno is also speaking at this event, and so that will be the day after Valentine's Day, february 15th, online. And then I also did a talk for the Voyager Reading Group about this time last year and I am developing another talk with them that should be in sometime in April. So watch for both of those things, and you can hear me go full on talking about reading instruction and sharing stories about the classroom.

Speaker 1: 57:31

Okay, great, and we will get the information and connections to all of that stuff and have it also in the show notes. Was there anything else that you wanted to share, any kind of newsletters or anything like that you would like to share with audience members?

Speaker 2: 57:46

I should really do a newsletter, but no no, I don't do a newsletter, but I appreciate the chance to talk with you and want some more to be on this side of the podcasting desk. It's an interesting, surreal experience to get to talk about one's own book, and so I appreciate that. And if you could just travel back to seven-year-old me and say you know those comics you're reading, someday you're going to be talking about them, I might believe you. At seven I might not, but I'm glad to be hearing grateful for the journey.

Speaker 1: 58:20

Well, you're very welcome and we're very excited to have you here on the Writers' Parachute. Of course we're going to go jump over before we end the show to our tip of the week and we kind of foreshadowed, teased it a little bit, talked a little bit about some of the things that Jason struggled with. One of them was an internal critic and he mentioned to me in the green room about his wife having to stop him from throwing away his drafts. Now I'm going to talk about this a little bit and then I'm going to let Jason talk a little bit about it. So I think we have to stop back from that internal critic. Because here's the thing that I've realized my internal critic only gives me a hard time when I'm winning. He never says a word when I'm messing up, when I'm losing, when I'm failing or any of that stuff, because he's more than happy. Let me do that. So, number one, if he comes out to play, you're doing something right. Otherwise he would just stay quiet. So take that for what it is.

Speaker 1: 59:24

Second of all is a lot of times when things don't go the way we planned or we don't think they're as well as we imagine. Sometimes that's about learning the craft of writing. Sometimes that's about exploring the ideas and figuring out whether or not you're passionate enough about it to follow through on the project, because sometimes we have great ideas and we start writing about it and we're just like I'm not that thrilled about it. I don't really want to, you know, and so maybe that's part of it. Also, it's about clarifying those ideas and topics. Maybe what we thought was a great idea kind of goes off into left field and that's a better way of looking at it or a better way of writing about it, or even just a more passionate topic or idea. Also, sometimes we have to step back and think about is it really the writing that's the problem, or is it the place that's the problem? So I mean, we can have, like, really great scenes in a book that just don't work and we can't figure it out. Well, you know why? Because it just doesn't work for that book. It belongs in a different book.

Speaker 1: 1:00:34

So I don't advocate throwing stuff away. I advocate making a slush folder for all that stuff to go in and then when you're stuck and when you're working on stuff, you can go look at it. You know, and what I find fascinating for me with my slush files. I put it up on my website about two or three times a year and it's just like, guys, here's all the deleted scenes from my books. And I'm always amazed by the response of people who want that. I'm just like, really it's just stuff that I didn't use, but they want it because I guess you know, kind of like with the Comic-Con and you know, in the community and stuff it makes them feel more connected to those characters, those stories, because they get to see the stuff that got left on the cutting room floor, so to speak. So sometimes it's about place.

Speaker 1: 1:01:27

And then the last thing I'm going to say is drafts are supposed to be messy. They're supposed to be, you know, disjointed, they're supposed to not be great. Otherwise we would just sit down and write a novel and be done with it. We wouldn't need editors, we wouldn't need coaches, we wouldn't need to think about it. We don't think that way, we don't speak that way, this way. A lot of times when you get up to do a speech in front of people, you have to sit down and think about what you're going to say. In other words, it's just garbage flow around and you never get to the point because you've lost track, so you know, and that's sort of the thing that's going on with the story. So again, give your internal critic. I kick in the pants. Don't let self doubt or any of that stop you. And just remember, sometimes just writing a draft is about getting the garbage out of the way so you can get to the good stuff. So what do you have to say about it, jason?

Speaker 2: 1:02:32

Absolutely, absolutely yes, yes to all of that. About 12 years ago now, I think it was, I would write things, write things, delete, throw them away. It was perfectionism, insecurity, major imposter, not only syndrome, I mean, this was a clinical condition. And so at one point I remember my wife, who has shared much wisdom with me along the way and along the years, including hey, have you thought about going to college? She said stop throwing your writing away, just keep at it. Send some of it out there, see what happens. And so I'd sort of been on the cycle, as a teenager and young 20s, of trying to send things out and get published, and my voice just wasn't there just quite yet in the way that it needed to be, and neither was my patience if I got feedback from an editor, one of the pieces that you mentioned, the English journal piece that I wrote. I'm now really good friends with the editor. I'm working on a chapter for him but I went through that probably eight or nine times, with minor corrections. Twenty years ago I might not have done that.

Speaker 2: 1:03:48

I might have taken that as a sign that, oh, this person doesn't like me or I'm just not good at this, but I developed the persistence and the drive to really want to be published in this journal and so I did that, and so it's that keep at it message, absolutely. But it's also I love the idea of like a slush folder. I'm a big journal keeper. I think I have one, yes, right here. Look at that.

Speaker 1: 1:04:15

Yeah, awesome.

Speaker 2: 1:04:17

Very appropriate for talking comics. But I think Ray Bradbury has the best intros to his books, where he talks about getting his ideas and writing them down and just you know one word becoming a story. So if there's a story out there that's alive inside you. Just just water it, just fertilize it now in there and see what happens.

Speaker 1: 1:04:40

Right, well, and you know, not all stories need to be told. Sometimes you just have to get that story out to get to the good story you know, and you know it happens, and you know it's.

Speaker 1: 1:04:56

I don't worry about perfectionism. I hear this a lot. I personally leave mistakes in my books, which drives a lot of people nuts. But I use it also as a tool to get readers to read it, because if they can find the correct number of mistakes in the book, I'll give them a free t-shirt. Oh, there you go, you know, and I do know how many are in there, because I've had it pointed out to me many times.

Speaker 1: 1:05:27

But you know, what I find is, kids will read it better. They'll read it a little more critically, so that they can, and they'll want to read the book. To get the free t-shirt, it's like nothing for me and they've achieved what I want, which is to get them to read the books. What's?

Speaker 2: 1:05:42

up.

Speaker 1: 1:05:43

And also, too, I don't want to be perfect, because then I have to live up to that with every subsequent book, and I don't want to. I don't want to. So I'm just like I'm just a little bit better than last time, and maybe I'll hate perfection at some time, but I doubt it. So it's like, and sometimes it's a living history of my progress as a writer. You know, my first book isn't as good as my second one, and my last book is better than all of the other ones. So and that's OK.

Speaker 2: 1:06:18

We're people telling stories with the tools that we have.

Speaker 1: 1:06:21

Exactly, and you know when. It's like any other muscle in your body, the more you use it, the better you get. Yep, Absolutely. So there you go. Well, I hope you enjoyed this week of the Writers Parachute. We invite you to come back again next week. Go ahead and make sure that you sign up for either the inbox email list or you hit the bell or subscribe button so you get notifications of new episodes. As always, I am so grateful to be the host here on the Writers Parachute, guiding author and writer dreams to perfect landing, and we hope that you find this a safe and confident creative space for you and your dreams to land well too. Until next time. See you guys later. Bye.